'59 390 noise

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'59 390 noise

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'59 390 noise - 11/27/2007 11:04:20 AM

devilleish

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A buddy o' mine has a '59 390/HydraMatic combo in his '64 Sedan DeVille. Fresh rebuild, about 1500 miles on it now, it's a stock rebuild except for an Edelbrock AFB and a mild Isky cam. No matter what we do, the valvetrain ticks (clatters?) loudly at any temp. The car runs like a scalded cat, but the noise is driving us insane. Also, the damn thing diesels - when it wants to. Sometimes it'll go a few days without, other days it'll do it every time you shut it down.

This video is not his engine, but it's another '59 390 that sounds very much like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKzekqp7jBA&feature=related

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

< Message edited by devilleish -- 11/27/2007 11:08:41 AM >

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RE: '59 390 noise - 11/27/2007 12:41:42 PM

stomper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: devilleish

A buddy o' mine has a '59 390/HydraMatic combo in his '64 Sedan DeVille. Fresh rebuild, about 1500 miles on it now, it's a stock rebuild except for an Edelbrock AFB and a mild Isky cam. No matter what we do, the valvetrain ticks (clatters?) loudly at any temp. The car runs like a scalded cat, but the noise is driving us insane. Also, the damn thing diesels - when it wants to. Sometimes it'll go a few days without, other days it'll do it every time you shut it down.

This video is not his engine, but it's another '59 390 that sounds very much like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKzekqp7jBA&feature=related

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

that sounds to me like you need to adjust the tappets, they sound like they got too much slack
or they are not getting oil.

I dont know if you got solids or hydraulic tappets. do you know?

take the covers off, start the engine w/o the covers, see where the noise is AFTER it warms up,
make sure the oil is flowing well. IF you dont know how to adjust the tappets (IF SOLIDS) get back
to us or take a look at a Chilton. You arent going to find a Factory Manual, i dont think.

I assume the CAM is ok ? someone checked the CAM & cam bearings on the rebuild?

< Message edited by stomper -- 11/27/2007 12:46:15 PM >

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RE: '59 390 noise - 11/27/2007 6:28:04 PM

slowroll

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Look what stomper suggested, also contact Isky tech support towards any necessary mods for cam. Dieseling - fuel quality, engine temp, and idle speed are concerns. Idle speed solenoid maybe required.

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RE: '59 390 noise - 11/28/2007 4:12:45 AM

devilleish

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According to his 1959 Cadillac Service Manual and my 1958-66 Chilton, there is no adjustment on the valvetrain. Rockers are solid-mounted to their supports, similar to the HT4100. Valvetrain above the cam is stock Cadillac with hydraulic lifters. Oil pressure is right at Cadillac spec, about 35psi idling hot.

The idle kicker has come up in conversation, not sure how to hook it to the AFB (had a WCFB from the factory), but it may wind up being the way out for the dieseling.

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RE: '59 390 noise - 11/28/2007 6:41:12 AM

stomper

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quote:

ORIGINAL: devilleish

According to his 1959 Cadillac Service Manual and my 1958-66 Chilton, there is no adjustment on the valvetrain. Rockers are solid-mounted to their supports, similar to the HT4100. Valvetrain above the cam is stock Cadillac with hydraulic lifters. Oil pressure is right at Cadillac spec, about 35psi idling hot.

The idle kicker has come up in conversation, not sure how to hook it to the AFB (had a WCFB from the factory), but it may wind up being the way out for the dieseling.

I thought so .. they may slugged internally .. my guess is you need either new lifters or clean them up if that
is possible with the ones you got .. some lifters can be disassembled, cleaned and reused.

It is damn important that the oil TO THE LIFTERS is flowing well, since that is how they work, with oil pressure.

ALSO - its been a very long time, but we used to dis-like hydraulic lifters since they had a tendency to "float"
at very high rpm, pushing the valves a bit more than they should, punching a hole in the pistons - and ruin the day.

we used to change out the valvetrain to solid lifters. Can that be done these days? I dont know if the parts are
avail.

At any case, if oil pressure is ok, sludge be my top suspect - lifters, the delivery channels, orifices.

Followed by worn lifters. A hydraulic lifter should NOT give you any clatter at all once engine warms up.

Solids will clatter a bit, specially cold and that is OK. I still got one car with a German engine, solid lifters,
and you know it when she starts up. then it settles down as it warms.

keep in mind that engine was designed to run on leaded fuel, dieseling is a serious concern with unleaded.
heed slowroll on his advice.

< Message edited by stomper -- 11/28/2007 7:20:58 AM >

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RE: '59 390 noise - 12/1/2007 5:02:08 AM

devilleish

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The lifters came in the box with the cam. Everything in the engine is (was?) clean and new or like new upon assembly. The only mod besides the cam is an .040 overbore to clean up after 2 pistons lost the lower ring lands when the engine originally blew. Cam break-in was followed to the letter, and the cam seems to be working perfectly, as this engine pulls like a freight train, even in a car this heavy. Can we switch to a 10W30 oil and possibly get better pressure to the top end? Running Shell Rotella right now, and I fear it may be more than the stock oiling system is able to handle.

UPDATE: Apparently the dieseling was from the throttle plates being open too far. A little tweaking to the linkage was in order and reset the idle speed screw. Set base timing, and all is good there.

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'59 390 noise - oil starvation ? - 12/1/2007 7:51:10 AM

Stealth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: devilleish

The lifters came in the box with the cam. Everything in the engine is (was?) clean and new or like new upon assembly. The only mod besides the cam is an .040 overbore to clean up after 2 pistons lost the lower ring lands when the engine originally blew. Cam break-in was followed to the letter, and the cam seems to be working perfectly, as this engine pulls like a freight train, even in a car this heavy. Can we switch to a 10W30 oil and possibly get better pressure to the top end? Running Shell Rotella right now, and I fear it may be more than the stock oiling system is able to handle.

UPDATE: Apparently the dieseling was from the throttle plates being open too far. A little tweaking to the linkage was in order and reset the idle speed screw. Set base timing, and all is good there.

Switch from what to what?

I am not sure what you are asking, but you go to HEAVIER oil to get higher oil pressure.
If the pressure is low at any one point of the engine, more oil will go there and starve another point.
Oil follows the laws of physics pretty well, the path of least resistance.

Try it. take a plastic bottle full of water and poke a tiny pin hole, water comes out.
While water is coming out of the pin hole, punch a big hole elsewhere. Water in the pin hole will most likely
stop or decrease flow.

what is the assy clearance on the bearings?
what is the clearance on the tappets, hot?
what is your oil pump pressure?
can you check oil pressure at different points - ie valve train?
have you VISUALLY inspected for oil flow at the valve train, EACH valve, covers OFF, engine hot?

As my engines accumulate miles (150k to 200k), I tend to go to heavier oils, often single weight oils.
In one case, my 200,000 mile 4x4 that runs heavy in the desert, often in 115F temps, I often go to 50W
and add a bottle or two of STP.

< Message edited by Stealth -- 12/1/2007 8:04:02 AM >

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RE: '59 390 noise - oil starvation ? - 12/1/2007 9:10:24 AM

slowroll

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Have you checked rocker arms for looseness with engine off, you should not feel any play. Has the condition been there from the start? Have you contacted ISKY yet? Check rocker arms for oiling at idle with valve covers off. If one is not oiling or slow to oil you could have bad lifter. Getting bad new lifter(s) does happen. Piston(s) in backwards or with too much cylinder wall clearance can also make a tapping noises. One last thing you are sure what year engine is? 390 went through major redesign for the 63 model year. You can't mix and match parts.

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