Cadillac Allante ABS flush accumulator relay pump red light manual ( brake light coming on)

today my brake light came on.when it came on i stopped and turned the car off to reset and it stayed off for about 1/2 hour but it came on again.after resetting it stays off about another 1/2 hour and that's the way it went all today.there was no loss in braking power and i see no difference in the way the brakes are working. i have checked everything i could think of with no luck. any clue as to what is going on?


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you dont specify car model ...

we are in the Allante section, so Allante?  if so what year?

Should your brake light come on there are several possibilities, one of them being your e-brake not fully released,
the other being a failing component and a subsequent crash.

except for the e-brake not  being fully released, the only advice is  PARK THE CAR.

when that light is on, you get maybe 3 or 4 more pushes of the brake pedal and after
that your only recourse is to look for a fence or bushes to bring it to a halt.

go to  allantesource.com  and do the diagnostics posted there.

From symptoms, if you are also getting ANTI-LOCK DISABLED  and TRACTION CONTROL DISABLED  error messages when the red brake light comes on, the most common cause of what you have described is Code 64 (if you have a 1990 through 1992 Allante') being set by the EBTCM. This is one of the plausibility fault codes, which means steps are happening out of sequence inside the master cylinder when the brakes are applied. To confirm this is the case, run the ABS diagnostics. Procedure for doing this can be found on our website at http://www.allantesource.com under the "ABS Information" heading on the left menu. If you are getting a Code 64, this can be caused by either nearly worn out brake pads, a weak accumulator, or worn (internally bypassing) internal master cylinder seals. Two people have told me they were able to correct this problem by changing the brake fluid. I have never been that fortunate. It is not a good idea to drive with the red brake light on. Pull over and shut off the car then restart it to get the light out.  If the light ever does not go out on restart, do not drive the car. Most likely there is not adequate internal pressure to operate the braking system. If the ABS pump fails, the red light will come on, there is no hydraulic assist other than the few pedal applications stored inside the accumulator, and stopping ability is very greatly reduced. You cannot assume braking will remain and continue to be OK if the red light is on. The red brake warning light is there for a very important reason, to get you off the road if there is a problem. Not all problems with this system result in significant loss of stopping ability. If you get used to driving with the red brake light on, you may not heed or get the warning if/when something changes that does reduce your stopping ability.

it's funny because i get the ANTI-LOCK DISABLED,TRACTION CONTROL DISABLED and that lasts from 3-5 seconds then it will display ANTI-LOCK OK, TRACTION CONTROL OK,SYSTEMS OK but the red light will stay on.yesterday i drove all day and there was never any time that there was any reduced braking. when the light comes on i pull over and restart the car and the red brake light goes out.it does come back on sometimes and sometimes it doesn't but it always comes back on when i put on the brakes.i think i heard the brake pad squeeking the other day so i will also check my pads.

You really need to check for codes. The condition maybe in early stages, and brakes may let you down when you need them.

On the front side of the e brake pedal (firewall side) if you run your hand up from the pedal there is a lever that you can push with your thumb while pulling the brake pedal towards you (toward the seat)  There have been a few times while getting in or out of the car my foot (without knowing it) slightly pushed in the e brake enough to cause the light to come on but not affect driving or braking , and it was in only a little so putting the car in gear would not  release it the rest of the way.
If that is not the problem then heed the advice of the posts above.
 
G.A.R.Y.

 
jono...,

I know you are new to Allante, but please heed the cautions, and
if it is not the ebrake  as some members above have eluded to, 
PARK the car.  Check the ebrake, if that is it, the fix is simple and
not a big problem.  BUT, if not, you got a dangerous situation.

That RED BRAKE Light is the Allante's way of telling you to PARK it
until you find out why  it comes on.  The Allante computers are as smart as
it gets.  They rarely cry wolf.

My archives are full of owners that crashed cuz ignored that RED Brake Light. 
We have already got more than plenty of parts cars as it is. 

You will NOT feel a degrade in braking until there is none.
The Allante ABS is like an Alkaline battery, full power until the very end.


How many TECH's have issued the warning? 





   * * * *   PARK IT  * * * *

i can do that since it's not my regular driver.i quess i'll just pull out the 3.5 rl until i can run some diagnostics and get it to my mechanic.

well seeing the beast chained up got the best of me today. i took her out for a 15 min tour.when i cranked her up the brake light luminated for a couple of seconds and went out.during my tour in stop and go traffic i didn't see the brake light not once.it was like the problem dissappeared. i am still going to have the pads looked at and a brake system flushed because i know that problems just don't dissappear.

Actually what you just posted, your brakes are acting normally. When you turn the key the pump will operate normally to build up pressure in the accumulator and you should have a brake warning light and the anti-loc inop message on the dic. Should both dissappear after the pressure is built up and not appear again until car has been shutdown for several minutes. If you don't like seeing it, try turning key on and waiting several seconds until all lights are off and then turning key completely off and then starting the car. You will have no warning lights at this time if system is normal as I believe. The first and only time you had them driving could have been an Allante "glitch!|"    Just remember if the red master brake warning light illuminates you will have maybe "four" brake applications. That's the number I had!
On one of your posts you stated that the only time you got the red light was when applying the brakes which means your electric pump had to run to supply brake pressure. "Bad accumulator" but now seems to be doing it's job!

quote:

ORIGINAL: jono6406

it's funny because i get the ANTI-LOCK DISABLED,TRACTION CONTROL DISABLED and that lasts from 3-5 seconds then it will display ANTI-LOCK OK, TRACTION CONTROL OK,SYSTEMS OK but the red light will stay on.yesterday i drove all day and there was never any time that there was any reduced braking. when the light comes on i pull over and restart the car and the red brake light goes out.it does come back on sometimes and sometimes it doesn't but it always comes back on when i put on the brakes.i think i heard the brake pad squeeking the other day so i will also check my pads.

zinzin,

did you see this part?

There have been many postings! The last indicationg normal op.
But I don't believe there can be a message "anti loc OK."   I have never seen this on my 87 and I believe the new owner just did not see the statement "antiloc OK,"  just "All systems normal" and interpreted that this meant anti loc OK.  (as it does)
I believe he was reading "all systems normal" which would be normal after the initial check. I still believe his system is operating normally but the brake flush can't do any harm .  We all know that when we have the initial red light indication as the system is accumulating pressure we also have the anti loc inop displayed on the DIC. They all disappear as soon as the pressure has built up in the system.and as soon as that happens the red light goes out and the anti loc inop dissappears from the DIC.
The fellow doing the brake flushing will be surprised after flushing the system just how long it's going to take to get all the air out. We had to bleed the system at least five times all around.
His last posting was what I have been observing for five years and until he has that "master red"  and "anti loc" on continuously he has a normal system.
One of the postings indicated the red light was illuminating when brakes were applied and that would have indicated loss of accumulator pressure but that seems to have corrected "itself" and later postings indicate normal operation.  We all know how quirky we felt these cars were the first six months of ownership, and we all seem to be waiting for something to happen.
It is unfortunate that the Bosch system in the Allante has but one "master red" warning system which remains on constantly when both the hydraulic pump and accumulater fail together. Then things happen fast. The Bosch identical system in the Prius has a master red light warning if the accumulator fails and a separate master red light warning if the pump fails giving you plenty of warning and plenty of time to drive to some place safely for service.

after reading all his postings, i'm starting to think .. "This is a TEST"


also, what you said about the RED Light is a "me too".  Add to your list, the ebrake on, RED light on.
I guess we should be happy that the eng dept didnt use that same RED light for "fuel is low" and battery "charging."
was the GM eng dept conserving on light bulbs?

There you go!  I believe jono06406 is just a new owner who hasn't quite yet figured out what occurs with the brake system and is coming up with different interpretations from what he is seeing on the DIC.  That start-up Red with the anti-loc inop coming on at most starts gets hard to get used to. My first months I got in the habit of turning key, waiting for all the lights and message to go off, (even sometimes watching for the 32 seconds allowed by Dick Hussey) then turning key off and then going thru the complete engine start up with "NO" lights before driving off. Now I know what "all systems normal" means.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hyperion

There you go!  I believe jono06406 is just a new owner who hasn't quite yet figured out what occurs with the brake system and is coming up with different interpretations from what he is seeing on the DIC.  That start-up Red with the anti-loc inop coming on at most starts gets hard to get used to. My first months I got in the habit of turning key, waiting for all the lights and message to go off, (even sometimes watching for the 32 seconds allowed by Dick Hussey) then turning key off and then going thru the complete engine start up with "NO" lights before driving off. Now I know what "all systems normal" means.

hmmm .. i thought i was the only one that did that - AFTER I knew what all that messaging was about.

BTW, when i first got my car the Brake RED Light was on all the time, I had no clue what that was about, thinking it was some engine related issue.  Eventually the RED Light just went  OFF, two or three weeks later.  After I found about the possibility of a total brake failure, it dawned on me what could have happened.

What I know is that the car had just gotten new pads, new tires and the dealer thought it nice to spray the whole engine compartment with WD40 to make it shine.  They did all that after i had agreed to buy the car, at no extra cost so i had nothing to complain about.  The sales lady wanted to also have the leather sprayed (color) and she gave me a coupon for me to take it in.  Since the seats needed re-stitching, i never took it in.

hi guys, i know i am new and the operations and messages from the dic are messing me up but now i think i have found the answer to my problem. today i took the beast to work.it is about a 6 mile one way trip.during that trip my brake light came on 3 times. all 3 times i pulled over and restarted the beast and the red brake light cleared.coming home was about the same but this time my radio was off and i noticed that every time i stepped on the brakes i could hear a quiet motor cycling.it would run about 3 seconds everytime i stepped on the brake petal( i counted ). when i arrived home i opened my hood and i had my daughter step on the brake petal and everytime she did i could hear a motor running  for about 3 seconds. it was the black cylinercal motor just in front of the master culinder just under the duct of the intake.might that be the accumulator and why does it cycle everytime i step on the brake.is it going bad.i now know is what is making my red brake brake light on? somebody tell me i'm wrong!!!

You are describing a failing accumulator. The bright small metal canister just above and to the rear of the electric pump you have identified. Dick Hussey sells rebuilts at a very reasonable price.  He will recommend changing the brake pump relay at the same time.
Just to give you a picture of the brake accumulator (and they are used in many car and aircraft braking systems) Picture a ball with a stretchable membrane deviding it in the center. On one side of the membrane is an inert gas, and on the otherside your hydraulic fluid. When an electric pump forces pressure into one side of the accumulator the membrane is pushed back in the ball until it reaches the extremity that the gas allows (say a pressure of 3,000 pounds.)  At this figure the pump will shut off. Now when you need pressure in the system (for brake applications) the gas pressure in the accumulator supplys it.  (No sound) After about a dozen brake applications the accumulator pressure bleeds down to say 2200 pounds. The electric hydraulic pump now comes on and in several seconds builds  the pressure back up to the 3,000 pounds. With this system you can see that the pump has to run very shortly after the original start up. That's why in the Allante's system you should always get a red brake light on "start-up" as the pump runs just long enough to pressurize the accumulator. That's why we use Dick Hussey's formula (in Allante source) counting seconds after an all night shut-off to determine how long it takes for the red light to turn off and system pressure is fully built up.
Now if you are hearing the pump come on at brake applications it indicates the accumulator has failed. It is one of the simplest and inexpensive parts in the system that can fail. Most people change out both the accumulator and master cylinder with new relay at the same time. Dick has rebuilt units as one package I believe.
Hey,  you haven't purchased a "lemon."  Just about everyone with an Allante with over 80,000 miles has gone through this problem and that's why Dick has gone to the trouble of having rebuilt the units. Cadillac only deals through new parts and that can be several thousand dollars. Allante source keeps these things "on the road."  Your ok driving without a constant red light. Just remember if the pump burns up from constant running and the red light stays on constantly you have less than a half dozen brake applications before "ZERO" braking.
What's happening to you is that there is zero pressure in the accumulator and so when the brakes need pressure the pump only is supplying it. Personally until I get the parts I would drive the six miles to work and enjoy the car but by using the brakes very sparingly. I don't beleve stopping and starting constantly does any more good eliminating the light than just not using the brakes for a minute or two would do.  Of course you will get a lot of opinions about this from folks that would cringe at any "red" light and that is reasonable but as long as you know exactly what is going on, you can make up your own mind.

What hyperion said is pretty close but before you half cocked on the other sites, let me point out that the ABS PUMP runs some of the time, after you use the brakes.  It is normal as its job is to "TOP OFF" the accumulator when the pressure gets low - as the accumulator ages, the need to top off is more frequent.  The ABS PUMP RELAY controls this operation.  Depending on the condition of the accumulator, the ABS Pump can come on every 10 applications (great condition accumulator) or every time (accumulator has seen bettter days). 

It is the ACCUMULATOR that provides stopping power with its 2500 psi or so of fluid pressure.  That little bitty canister perfectly stops the moving 4,000 lbs of Allante from 140 mph, every time - if it is in good condition.  Eventually, it wears out.

Your last description, certainly describes a failing accumulator and an overworked or even failing ABS Pump.  allantesource has the "rem accumulator" for around $300.  Should you decide to go without it, expect to also later add the  ABS Pump and ABS Relay as they get overworked.  If you are driving, touch the brakes and the light comes on, it means the accumulator pressure dropped below minimal.  If it then goes OFF, you are OK on your next  stop.  When it fails to go OFF, PARK IT and PARK IT NOW as you will get maybe two applications of the brakes before you go roller-coasting down the street. 

allantesource has a diagnostics procedure that will determione the health of the accumlator, the pump, the Master Cyl, etc .. use it, understand it, and heed his advice .. Dick really knows the ABS.

The ABS PUMP RELAY does wear out, just like tires and brakes.   Problem is, as I write this, there are NONE available that can be found.  Then again, I have not bothered to personally search for them.

The brake pads are pretty simple to diag.  You MEASURE them by standard practices.
The FLUSH, you better understand it. The FLUSH is the key to survival of your ABS.
This is the Allante ABS FLUSH thread I posted.
http://www.cadillacforum.com/m_7084/tm.htm

I highly suggest you do a SEARCH on our Allante section, read and learn.  You will find material here that you  can NOT find elsewhere, either because it is buried, fragmented over 50 different threads, got deleted, or simply "restricted" by the other sites.  We, at CadillacForuM, simply have got the cleanest FAQ on the Allante.  I dont have the time to update on all the sites or to repost the deletions by moderators on other sites.

If you haven't got BOTH a "Owner's Manual" and a "FACTORY SERVICE MANUAL"  by now, I highly suggest that you quickly find some fast and acquire this weekend. 

I am trying to spare you from getting flamed elsewhere.  You have got to start reading what we have. 

Failing any of that, you will find pretty clear instructions in MY PROFILE of this site, on how to make contact with me.

There ya go Jon. It don't get any better then that!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 

i agree, i got it good and straight.i think i have finally after 2 weeks come to the conclusion that i have a failing accumulator.i will order a recharged one and see what happens.by the way i don't care if i get flame!!! and happy holidays to all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jono6406

i agree, i got it good and straight.i think i have finally after 2 weeks come to the conclusion that i have a failing accumulator.i will order a recharged one and see what happens.by the way i don't care if i get flame!!! and happy holidays to all.

jon ...,

for flaming and abuse, there is already a site over yonder, even issue trophies to fit the occasion.

flaming, not to be confused with friendly barbs and bantering between people that already know each other,
with mutual understanding.

no new comer/newby  should ever be flamed, abused, be submitted to hazing & vulgarity,
or be treated like an idiot just because he/she doesnt know the cars, the site, or the lingo.

not here, not under our watch, not as long as Gary and yours truly are on patrol - thanks but no thanks.
there has got to be a safe haven for non-barbaric behavior,  I like to think we are one such website.

stealth, that sounds good to me.let me say i have "given up" on trying to solve my brake problem. i talked with dick today and i adjusted my brake petal switch but that did no good. the red brake light returned so now i'm done. next thursday off she goes to my allante tech who will flush it first to see if that does the trick and/or diagnose the problem.

Jon, no amount of work on the system is going to work if as you say the pump runs everytime the brakes are depressed. You have a "flat" accumulator and I would suggest you take one of Dick's rebuilt kits to your technition. The pump is obviously working so I would go for the rebuilt acciumulator/master cylinder along with a new regulator and solve the problem for at least another 75,000 miles.
By the way, Dick is happy to talk to anyone you bring the car to. He straightened out my mechanic. So bring his phone number along.

thanks hype.glen turned me onto troy an old school allante tech that he knew when he lived in the tampa area.he put my drivers door panel back on after i replaced my amp and couldn't get the panel back on and he did it in less than 10 minutes.i think he is going to run the diagnostics  with the 12" jumper wire from  behind the drivers lower left kick panel. when i get info from him i will post and i will bring dick's phone number with me. by the way i wish i could have got 75k miles out of mines too.my beast only has 60,991 miles on it. 

Jon, maybe a phone call to Dick who has been working on these things for years would be in order before going into the door for "DIC" info and codes. Monitoring the Allante net site for over five years I have never heard of any model doing this and I am sure if you have a service manual for your year it will indicate so. You will I am sure hear of this from many 92 owners on the Allante site if they are following the thread. That is the "JOY" of the DIC and the reason it was a selling point for "all" the cars.
I could be wrong but I am sure I would have heard or read of this before. Nary a mention in over five years, until yours.